Michel, you are one of the only actual sales professors here in Denmark. Why is there a need for a sales professor?

• Great question. So I think that the need for a sales professor is clearly there because it, if you look at it just at the numbers, a lot of people are needed in the sales domain, right? So if you look at companies, they are actually demanding people trained in the sales discipline. And it is actually a little bit interesting to see, maybe even paradoxical, to observe that there is not so much education, especially at the university level or the academic level, where we have sales related programs. And then companies do ask for that. And so there’s a clear mismatch in that sense between, on the one hand, demand and the other hand, supply.

Joakim, what does it mean for the sales profession to have a dedicated education?

• It means a lot. It is very important. So the fact that we can now combine the business community with the educational system and an institution, it sort of legitimizes sales. It makes sales more viable, more normal, perceived a career option. And it also makes a lot of sense in terms of great research that are done together. So I have plenty of colleagues and clients that are very interested in research projects related to sales. Now they are motivated that when they participate in a project, they can share this insight and data with an institution like Copenhagen Business Schools. It means a lot. So we have, for example, this study right now where we see different zones in Denmark. What time during the day fits best for CXOs having conversations in regards to sales? Is it morning? Is it late afternoon? Is it midday? There are no B2B research right now doing that. And the fact that we can share that data with CBS is one of the most motivating aspects from my colleagues. It’s not about the rewards or the results itself. It’s about sharing that so that, you know, future colleagues, future students can use that to become better at their jobs, right? And personally, when I graduated high school I knew that I loved sales. You know, I had my heart and mind in sales. But the thing was that I felt like I didn’t have any opportunity studying anything relevant to sales, right? It wasn’t an option. My friends, my family my network for them, you know, it’s not possible to have a career in sales because, Joakim, hey, you can’t study sales. So for that reason, it’s not a viable option. So I had to go with my mind, right? So I got into business commercial law at cbs. And I wasn’t that great of a student. I didn’t have my heart in it at first. And I got this job at Nykredit in their sales department. And one of the first days we were shown around the buildings and this we got into the sales department and I felt this energy. I felt the vibe, I felt drawn to it, I felt the belonging, right? And I had missed that so much. And then we were shown into different departments and went down this aisle and it was dead silent. I didn’t feel any energy. And the guy showing us around, he told me that Joakim here is in this department. There are a lot of commercial law and business law graduates just like you. So one day you can sit here and from that moment I knew that I was going to be dropping out of my studies at business law at Copenhagen Business School because I just didn’t have my heart into it, right? And I looked and looked, you know, what can I study that are relevant to sales? And I only found something called strategic communications, right? And it was partially relevant at best. And when I look back, if I had the opportunity to go into a study like sales management, I could have put both my heart and my mind into it. And I think I would have been a great student because I could have applied my interest and skills, right? And I think there are thousands of great talents out there right now where they now have this opportunity and therefore it’s a game changer.

Michel, do you agree that there is a general stigma around sales? If so, how does your educational program help reduce the stigma?

• Yeah, I clearly see the stigma, right. So if you just look at it, it has to do a lot also with what people are exposed to. So if they don’t have any experience in the sales domain, they know about sales from the movies and from the media, right? And then they will look at a movie like Wolf of Wall Street or see Leonardo DiCaprio, like doing all these sales related stuff which is always this kind of a negative association. So people think of salespeople as the door to door salespeople or the secondhand car dealer. And they don’t want to be like that, right? They actually don’t have a clue what it is to be a salesperson. And if I look at it more globally, what we see is that there is a clear difference between the US and Europe. So every year I’m asked to fill out a survey by the sales Education foundation and they publish a magazine, an annual magazine where they have a list of all Sals education in the US and across the globe. And what we see is that in the US there are like more than 150 programs, dedicated programs, programs on sales management. If I look in Europe, there are only like a handful of programs doing that and CBS being the only one in Denmark actually focusing on that. So first of all I do see the stigma and it’s also based a lot on what people think sales is, which is not necessarily the same as what actually reality in terms of what sales management in reality is in practice. And there’s also a difference in terms of culture I think. Right, so in the US there is more like a positive image around sales than what sales is in Europe Next to that, what I personally experienced in 2018 when I joined CBS is that they asked me to, to join the faculty and become the director of this new program which was around sales and sales management. Because the university and the study board, they clearly indicated that there is a need for sales related commercial education and they did their research and they have written they wrote a white paper where they interviewed people, practitioners, but also looked at other universities, business schools, what they were doing there. And what they found is that well, there is this clear need for commercial education, something related to digitalization and companies are really asking for people trained and educated in those domains. And then they said well we created the program and you can become the manager of that program. And we call it Customer and Commercial Development. And that was a fancy name and students were like attracted to that. So in the first cohort in 2018 around 400 students applied for that program which was quite impressive for like a new, completely new program. So there was a clear indication that this was something that was both needed from the business side and also that’s something that the students really liked. But then when I was talking, when we were running the program, I was talking with students and then I was talking with business representatives and I was talking with colleagues and then students would come at my office and they would say well I’m talking with this company and I’m applying for a job there, but the company is asking me what is the program about? Because customer and commercial development, it sounds very fancy but they have no clue what it is about, right? And then I said well actually it’s about sales management, right? And some students were very happy with that because they said well I’m applying for a sales related job, so that is a perfect fit and I can tell that and explain that. And people have a clear idea of what sales management is. But on the other hand, we also had I also had talks with a lot of students and they said, well, no, no, no, I don’t want to be associated with sales management. Can you tell me something else? And then I would say, well, yeah, you can mention the digitalization part and that we also focus on that. Or you can put a different label on that. Whatever you think is best, right. But in the end, it’s about sales management. And then we talked about that. And the end conclusion was that in terms of the labeling of the program and the positioning of the program, it was actually very unclear. So people had no idea what it was about. They could not put it in like a box or between brackets. Like, okay, this is what the program is about. And if you look at it from a marketing perspective, that is poor positioning, right? Yeah, it is, it is. So we had to do something there. And then I suggested, well, just let’s call it what is. Right, we have also, like a goal as an educational institution to explain what sales management is about and just put the label on it. Like, not in hiding it or disguising it, but just calling it what it is. And then overnight, because people, luckily at CBS, they realize the importance and also the importance of clear positioning, they changed it overnight. So then I had some difficulty in explaining to my students and companies like, oh, well, we changed the name, but it’s for the better. Right? Yeah. And in the end it actually paid off. Right, so we are now 2024. We have like 200% more applicants this year. So it is highly attractive. And we also see that in the end, I did some, like, quick research on LinkedIn. Just checking where do the alumni, where do they work? Where do our students end up? And if I just look for the word sales management, 30% of all alumni have that somewhere in their profile. Right. So regardless of what kind of program they do. So, yes, there is this clear stigma. And yes, the program is helping and actually educating people that sales is not like a bad thing, is it is not something that is related to these negative associations, but actually something that you can have a good career in.

Joakim, have you personally experienced stigma? And if so, how has the situation evolved since the start of the Sales Management education?

• I’ve experienced stigma in regards to sales many times. Friends, family, relations colleagues, leadership. You know, I’ve experienced it so many times “Joakim it is just because you’re born with it.” “It’s because you know you’re extroverted.” “It’s because you like building relationships” or even it’s because you know, you don’t want to be focusing on delivering a specific subject or anything like that. And if I look at myself and my experiences, I’ve done a career within finance and professional services, right? And those are industries with brilliant minds, you know, talented people that have excellent educational background directly related to their profession, right. Such as auditors and lawyers. And when they look at themselves, you know, the educational aspect of their doing is what they are professionally, right. So they associate that to be extremely important. And when they cannot relate that to a sales related education, then I think it helps them unknowingly not look down at sales but don’t appreciate sales that much simply because back then there weren’t any educational background within sales that you could study. And when I started together with my Co-founder and other people, I helped started the sales department at Deloitte back in 2014. It was a big change within Deloitte, right? Now a sales department also called sales, right. And I experienced a lot of stigma and we had to convince partners and departments that you know, we could actually help and we could be and we’re professionals, not car sales dealerships, not that there anything wrong with car sales dealership but there are many aspects of sales, right. And this got part of my daily business that I surrounded myself with this stigma. So I myself became, you know, part of it. I became indoctrinated. As the year went by in these three years at Deloitte, I had to label things as well because I saw that it resonated better if I labeled it towards clients internally at Deloitte. So when I founded Radiant back in late 2017, I myself have become part of the stigma. Even though Radiant is about helping clients grow by doing sales, I had a hard time actually labeling it as sales. I felt the need and the urge to tell it was something else, it was something different. And even when I recruited I had a hard time just saying what it is because I didn’t feel it was the right thing to say what to do because it weren’t as good as many other aspects. So you know all the buzzwords I used them as well to label it sales or something else. And we had a sudden change here at Radiant and it was by the time I also get to know the program at CBS Sales Management I myself, I found, you know, it was easier to just say it as it is sales, you know, it can be professional, B2B sales within finance, professional services, whatever. Just speak plainly, you know. And we went from these buzzwords to actually saying what it is we want to attract, develop and offer the best sales talents, we do sales, we’re proud of sales. And it became more and more of something. You know, I really like sales. What it is, I’m proud of it. It’s an expertise, it’s my profession, it’s what I do for a living. And I’m really proud of it. And I’ve seen colleagues, friends also grown into that, that now it’s more okay. That sales that’s a career. You can study sales now you can do sales. So absolutely I’ve experienced stigma a lot, but it’s been reduced a lot since the program came out. Happy to hear that.

So to sum up, the education not only reduces the stigma, but also enhances professionalism and proficiency within the sales profession here in Denmark.

• Yeah, I would say a hundred percent. It does it helps a lot. It is now something where talents and future students, they have an option, they now have an option not only doing business within sales, but also studying sales. And those two things combined is what makes sales greater and greater and reduces the stigma. And also their interaction between the educational institutions and business communities will make sales grow and grow. So I think it will continue to. Reduce stigma and maybe just to add to that. So what we see is that even though that people with different backgrounds also end up in sales, research clearly shows that if you have professional sales education, formal sales education, you will outperform even people with experience, right. So it really has an added value. And beyond that, the skills, the sales related skills is not only something that you use in the sales job. Right. It’s something that you can use in any facet of life. So in that sense it’s valuable in many respects. Yeah, about, you know, the thing also just by identifying problems helping people solve problems and what’s needed at what time. Yeah, just that aspect alone is something you need and can use in any aspects of your life. Exactly.