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How does sales change when data, platforms and retail media become central to commercial decision-making? In this episode of Oplev Salg, Michel van der Borg from CBS & Anna serner explore how data reshapes power dynamics between brands and retailers, why traditional negotiation matters less, and what this means for modern sales organizations. A conversation about sales, decision-making and the changing sales role in a platform-driven market.
As data, platforms, and retail media becomecentral to commercial decision-making, the role of sales is evolving infundamental ways.
In this episode of Oplev Salg, we spokewith Anna Serner, founder of REDAME and expert in retail media. Together withMichel van der Borgh from CBS, they discussed how data reshapes power dynamicsbetween brands and retailers, and what this means for modern salesorganizations.
More data doesn’t automatically improvedecisions
Greater access to data increasescomplexity. Value is created when data is combined with experience, judgement,and deliberate reflection.
Sales is becoming consultative by necessity
As platforms grows more data-driven, salesprofessionals increasingly act as advisers, helping partners navigate data,media, and commercial choices more effectively.
Value shifts from products to traffic anddata
In platform-driven markets, sales successdepends on redefining what is being sold and learning how to monetize assetsthat already exist.
Companies don't need more data, they needto learn how to monetize what they already have.
Retailers and brands already sit onvaluable traffic, behavioural insights, and customer access. The real shift isnot about collecting more information, but about redefining where value iscreated, and building the commercial capabilities required to act on it.
Yes. All right. So, retail media andcontent platforms are often presented in very broad terms from yourperspective. And what is the concrete commercial problem retailers are tryingto solve with these models? Yeah. Thank you for the question. I think we needto back a couple of steps before I start answering these questions. So let'sstart with just me introducing what we to media is.
So retail media is essentially multi-brandretailers. So retailers selling products of others that could, for example, bea grocery store or a fashion retailer selling products of others in theirstore, then offering media space to their suppliers in their shops. To take anexample, we can again look at the grocery store, because that is a very goodsetting that a lot of us are used to.
So think of the grocery store having a,physical store, and they have, e-commerce platform. And then they have a lot ofsuppliers. So we can take Coca-Cola, which is a very, famous brand. They wouldlike to reach the customers of the grocery store. So why not do it in themoment where they actually shopping?
So retail media would be that the grocerystore are, offering media exposure or media exposure? Possibilities in theirshells. So let's say in the physical store, the grocer, the grocery store, havedigital screens, and then they sell some of this space to Coca-Cola. That is areally good media placement. And now when we, look at the commercial side andwhat why it makes sense, we can also go some few steps back.
So we have these two players, we have theretailer, and we have the brand. So from the retailer side, they already have alot of traffic. They have a lot of customers coming into the store or visitingtheir website or subscribing to the newsletter. This is highly valuable trafficbecause it's someone that is actually wanting to buy something.
So if you're Coca-Cola, you really want toreach these consumers. And today they're paying a lot of money to reach theseconsumers in other channels like Facebook or Google. But why not reach themwhere they actually shop? So from a commercial standpoint for, the retailer, itwould be to add a new revenue stream, starting selling media and mediaplacement, but it would also be to strengthen their relationship with thesupplier and coming closer to them.
And from the brand side, it's really makessense to reach the consumers where they actually are shopping. And on top ofthat, they usually also get access to data about the end consumer, becausetoday it's sort of a black box as a brand new are selling to a multi-brandretailer, and then you don't really know who's buying your product.
But here it opens up for an opportunity forthe brand, the retailer to share data to the brand. And if you look at theconsumer side, they get more relevant ads, presented to them. So actually it'sa win win win solution. Yeah. So if I can respond. Yeah. Because it toucheslike with a lot of things that we also talk about like already for years.
Right. In marketing. So for instanceadvertisements is not like a new phenomenon. Right. So we already had, ofcourse, retailers providing space, promotional space for like brands and thenand, and suppliers of goods, and services. So, so in that sense, you say thatthis retail media is, is more or only digital, or can you just explain that alittle?
Yeah. I would say what you are talkingabout is trade marketing. And as you say, it's been around for a long time. Andhow trademark is usually happening is once a year. They have this yearlynegotiations with the retailer, has it with their brands, and then they decideon how like, how big of a volume are by purchasing from this brand.
And on top of that you also add like trademarketing contribution or like a marketing contribution. And that could be, forexample, 1 million Danish kroner. But and the retailers say we will use thismoney to promote your products, but the brand doesn't really have any say inwhat these products are used for or money are used for.
They're usually used for discounts. Couldbe of course promotional activities in the store. So I would say that retailmedia is amplifier of this adding also the digital or data elements. But withthat said I don't think that you should only and narrow it down to the digitalproducts. So it could also be like an a sampling event or a demo event space.
So I would say like all the spaces you cansell where you have traffic, that could be a retail media product, part of yourlead to media offering. But it's of course needs to work together with thetrade marketing team. So you're not like, it's a lot of discussion about, isthis just moving money from the trade marketing to the retail media?
And like, this is nothing new. We justcannot, like, move money. And I think that is a valid discussion, but I alsothink you should should see it as a retailer, as something that's workingtogether. It's a way to get more trade money if you want to call it trademoney. Or a way to, to make it more sophisticated your offering.
And the real difference is that retailersnow capitalize on their data. Yeah. The data that they collect. Exactly. Andmake it a bit more sophisticated the way that they sell media. So I think thatthis newspapers with offers that they have had for a long time before they, alot of retailers like, offered half a page advertisement in our newspaper, orpromotional leaflet or like what they call it.
So that is a really good example of aretail media product. So retail media is nothing new. It's been a, a long form.It's been there for a long time. But now it's just a bit more sophisticated,maybe more like a media offering where you also use less data, as you say,like. How can, we target better.
Yeah. Interesting. And Michelle, as dataplatforms and digital channels become even more central, which part of thetraditional sales roles are becoming less relevant? And it's an interestingquestion because I think that because of the data availability withincompanies, a lot of aspects change within organizations. Right. So before wesaw that organizations often were silos of functions, that how to collaborate.
And now because of data availability, wesee that these functions are more integrated. Right. So it's organizations alsoneed to to adapt to that kind of new reality. What's what becomes lessimportance. I would say perhaps this is pure negotiation. Elements were all theexample that they actually gave. With direct marketing that, that I think thatbecomes less of an issue or less that's relevant.
Of course it will still exist. But I thinkthat it will be more like an ongoing kind of discussion between the differentplayers, both within organizations and across the supply chain. And that thepure negotiation kind of skills, the hard selling becomes less important inthat sense. It moves more to his kind of orchestration function. And that isbecause while there is more data availability.
It is also used for better decision making,but it really depends on who has that kind of data and what they can do withthat. Right. So that shifts the kind of power dynamics. Right. Sort of powerbalance between supply chains. And who has ownership of data can also utilizethat. Right. But I think that is not always happening.
No, but but maybe you can say, yeah, Iwould also say that the change just to see is for all of its to becoming moreconsultative. So now when we have the data, we also need to know how to use it.And then it's more like the salesperson being a consultant to the brand. So ifwe take the grocery example again, so let's say that, Coca Cola has permissionto sell more.
And the grocery store has a lot of data onselling. Then they need to consult Coca Cola. Should they try to target peoplewho bought Coca Cola last month, or should they actually target people whobought sparkling water? Because that target group is more, prone to change. Andthis switch category and that is something that they need to consult CocaColabecause Coca-Cola.
Don't know probably maybe Coca Cola,smaller brands doesn't. So then the sales person is more like an consultant.Yeah. And partnering with their brands to sell more together. Yeah. Which whichis a shift that we see also in many other industries. So, and what that happensis that, you're selling space to your supplier, right? So it's it's going intwo directions, right?
So they both sell something to each other.And of course, in this case, the retailer has the data and they can dorecommendations or better recommendations, which then leads to this moreconsultative selling kind of. Yeah I think that is very interesting. And youalso need different kind of skills for that. So and if I just look at theliterature they, they talk about for this is dual agency.
Right. So then these salespeople, they actnot only on behalf of their own company but also need to act on behalf of liketheir customers. And these they are selling. And that creates new kind ofchallenges. But I think, the bottom line there is that they really need to movetowards this kind of win win situation and become more of becoming partnersrather than a salesperson than a buyer.
Yeah, because as you also said, the onewho's buying is also the one selling. So it goes both ways with yeah, that theyhave this interdependency. Right. And of course they're always different brandsthat compete in the market. But I think that the one who has the, data oncustomer behavior and what they like and how that is kind of changing the kindof buying behavior, I think that is very valuable.
The question is how much are they actuallyutilizing that? Yeah, right. Yes. I think so. And, when companies try to buildretail media or platform based capabilities, where do you see real value beingcreated and where do they typically struggle that could be in contention,rising ownership and collaboration between sales and marketing? Yeah. So Iwould say the one that succeeds and is are the one that starts simple and thentest a lot.
So, start with like one channel or pride.It could be newsletter. So start offering, banner ads in your newsletter andthen go out to your 2 or 3 biggest suppliers or suppliers that you have thebest relationship and just ask them, like if we're thinking, I'm starting tooffering this placement. Would that be interesting for you?
This is the price and that is a very easyway to get started. And also test it out with, no capital risk. Because oftenwe think that when we're starting something out, we should go big or go home.So we make a lot of investments, and then afterwards we might figure out thator understand that this wasn't anything that our suppliers wanted to buy.
And the biggest problems like one maybe notso obvious challenge is the organizational structure of the retailers. So mediais an old concept that a lot of companies have been doing. But those are mediacompanies, retailers and product companies. So you have the say so when theysay they're selling products, they're super good in selling products.
And then you have the marketingorganization and they're super good in marketing the retailer and also spendingmoney because that's their job. So where do you place media sales? Becausethere's an intersection between sales and marketing. So that is something thatyou need to figure out before starting this, journey or in the beginning atleast, like, are we, creating a new department doing this, or should it be somekind of intersection?
Or how are we solving this? Organizationalquestions. Do companies organize that in many different ways, or do you seekind of the dominant way of how do you organize that? I would say the mostcommon way that I've seen is starting a new department. So what is happening inthe big retailers now. Is that a start.
They hire a person called head of retailmedia and then that person has their own sort of department. They could lay onthere one of the other ones, but it's still like working in sort of a silo,maybe not in a silo, but like in their own departments. And the next hireswould be like key account managers. And another thing that is important tothink about here is that media sales persons are all usually compensated bycommission.
And that is not a compensation model thatyou usually see at retailers. So you also need to figure out that compensationlevel, because if you want to hire good salespeople in this area, you probablyneed to be able to. I, offer them commission. Yeah. Which of course, then thisis well, if they're not used to that, it's a whole different mindset.
Yeah, exactly. what I think is, importantthere. If you talk about compensation systems and commissions and things likethat. Is it really that you need this kind of salespeople who are morecommission driven or because you could also argue like, okay, we just pay themmore, like a higher fixed overtime. And because you talked about thisconsultative setting.
So one could argue like more if you justpay them more, but like a fixed salary, that also would maybe be veryattractive. Yeah. Or you need different types of salespeople. Right. So yeah.And I think that could also be an attractive model. But then it also becomeslike discussion internally. Why are those selling media earning more than areselling the products.
Yeah. So, I at least I think it's aconsideration you need to make. And, how to like, come compensate because it'smedia sales is like, not cold calling, but sort of like, at least you need togo out. It's very different from selling products in the store. Yeah. Yeah.Well, if you look again at the research there, there's a lot of research oninside sales, which would be more like cold calling.
And or agents. And then the differentsalespeople, which could be account managers, and normally they would havedifferent conversations necessary because they have different job, differenttask, also different risk levels in that sense. So so yeah, it's interesting tosee also within these companies that is shifting. Yeah. So and if you also lookat examples from other companies.
So the UK market has come very far inretail media practices. There you can also see that they start completely newcompanies. So for example Tesco has Tesco Media. So they have like their ownmedia company. Which could also make sense because it's maybe not in theinterest of the retailer to go from being a product company to a media company.
But then you can start a new companyconnected to, to the core business. But, but it suggests that they need a wholedifferent set of competencies, but also maybe even a very different kind ofstrategic vision. Yeah. Which is like it's difficult to align that like so thenthen separating these organizations doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So if youmove a little bit over to the research perspective and show with this research,tell us about how sales organizations should be designed when decision makingbecomes more data driven to data driven but also more complex. And thistransparent and what tends to go wrong in practice. So so if, companies becomemore data driven.
I think that one assumption that is, oftenmade and taken for granted even is that data in advance of leads to betterdecision making, which is not the case. Having more data doesn't mean that youwill actually be able to make better decisions because, data availability andhaving a lot of data and analyzing that in a proper way is very, verydifficult.
Actually, I would say that the more datayou have, the more difficult it becomes to make like a good decision. Becausethere are so many even contrasting elements that you can pick up from the data.That is not necessarily of the mind. Right? So I think that what companies needto be aware of is that, if they have a lot of data, they need to have their ownway of, of working with the data and using that to make more informeddecisions.
So that requires vision that, that requireslike having direction, kind of a strategy, a process of how they use the dataand things like that. So there's for instance, research on on the how and salesdata is used. And there's also, there a couple of cases of that. And we seefrom that kind of evidence that it's not so much about, for instance, howaccurate these, these, these models are, right, that you used to analyze thedata.
It's more how people and companies use thedata for us to have a more broader discussion within the organization about,for instance, how to like, use written media or and which channels to, to useit or not, or how to, amplify traffic and all these things. Right. So, so it's,it's, it's the discussion that actually between people and using the data asinput that leads to more informed decision.
If they don't look at it in that way, butfor instance, say, well, we do the analysis and the data shows us this, andthis is the number, and we need to go or like in this direction or we have tomake this decision. Then often you see that the wrong decisions are madebecause there's no reflection.
Right. Yeah. So, I would say that data isin that sense complements. So it is complementary. It's to the whole decisionmaking process. It's inputs but it's not reality. Right. So people really needto like use their what we call private or local knowledge. Their, theirexperience to make sense of that data and analysis and things like that.
And I think if they do that, that alreadywill help a lot. Yeah. But so they should not become like, blind because of theidea that they think that the data tells them. All right. But I'm not sure howyou. Yeah, but I yeah, I see it exactly in the same way. And also that you needto think from a business perspective.
Yeah. I heard when we take a talking aboutbecause they had like a screen by their cashier. Where they could when you seewhat's been scanned and you could also show some ads and then they have ads fortheir internal campaigns like, get access onto your coffee, but they could alsosell it to external companies, for example, to Mars or Snickers or whoever wantto buy it.
And then there were discussion like, whatare we earning most while promoting our own products because we have a highmargin on them, or getting the money from the media sales and then hopefullyget some of the sales uplift also that profit. So that is also something youneed to consider. Like what consequences have we looked in yet when, you chooseone thing or the other.
Yeah. And then of course you can analyzethat or do some like experiments. Yeah. Or like a B testing or whatever. Butbut you need to have that discussion before, during and after. Right. Sales andalso have some sort of perception where you want to come like what's ourbusiness vision and value. Yeah. Exactly. So that is that I think that iscritical.
Yeah. So if we want to look a bit ahead,what do you think commercial leaders need to under. And what do they need to domuch faster to succeed in the next couple of years. I think they need to,broaden their view of what value they're offering. So if you're a productcompany, you also offer value in your traffic.
And selling traffic is something that a lotof companies have been doing for a lot of time. But how can we take thatconcept into new context. So that is something you need to unlearn and learnagain how to find value or how to define the value you have. Yeah. And we alsohave seen that in other industries and still are witnessing that.
Right. For instance in the bank and bankingenvironment. Right. So they have a lot of transactional data, but they actuallyare still not able to really utilize that data, partly because of privacyrelated issues. But I think, that, that new legislation on that also forcesthem more to utilize that data. And we see the same here, actually within theretail environment where there is so much behavioral data and then, of course,you can do all kinds of analysis on price elasticity, which categories are moreimportant or not, and how that's changing, private labels versus like labels orother kinds of elements can be analyzed.
But but I think it's really about creatinga competency and utilizing this data beyond that kind of more like like currentfocus that they have. But really think outside of the box, right, to, to thinkin new terms of business models. And I think that is exactly what you'rereferring to. With regards to them thinking about how to use retail media as anew kind of business model, and how do we partner with our suppliers.
Yeah, yeah. And work together with them. Ialso think like, Dreyfus and Fan Fest is a good thing to learn. Like, you needto be very fast moving because the world is so rapidly changing. So build upthat like testing functionality, which can be difficult in a big organization.But, do like ab testing and build up an environment where it's okay to fail,but also the people there is to test things.
Yeah. But then there you see that companieslike Amazon the from the start like of of of this organization, they have thisphilosophy every day is day one. Right. Yeah. So and that really is aboutexactly this point being entrepreneurial. Try to test and see what works andwhatnot. Exactly. Because we are in this increasingly complex and dynamicenvironment.
And then you can like have a very rationalkind of long process where you analyze it. Yeah, like that. But then beforeyou're at the end of the process, your competitors will already have the toolsto beyond that. Right. And the environment already has changed. So that I thinkis a very important. Yeah. And also interesting that you mentioned Amazon.
They're also very, very strong in themedia. And I think last year they were predicted to around $60 billion. Yeah.In their media business, which also creates new predictions about like okay, soif Amazon, one of the biggest resellers in the world, don't need to earn moneyon their products, how can other workshop that earns money on their productscompete?
Yeah, it will be possible. So then it alsobecomes like a necessity to also build up the media business. If you want tostill be in business as a retailer. Exactly. Yeah. Very important. And to wrapup, what is one concrete action that commercial team can take tomorrow toperform better in a more platform driven market?
I would say, look at what you have and,start monetizing it. So start with the example we had before with thenewsletter. Start with one concrete placement and then see if you can monetizeit. Yeah. And also reiterating what we talked about before. Testing multiplethings. Right. Not maybe in parallel but sequentially. Try to, to get this kindof experimental environment within the organization where it's okay to fail bythat, where it's allowed to fail, where people are not, like, punished for thator have the feeling that they're punished for that, but really to see what kindof opportunities are out there.
And I think that is very important. Andalso with the test environment set up like, this if this experiment succeeds,we have achieved this. If it fails, we, achieve this. Yeah. So you know whatthe test criteria are like? Very economical, but not this long articleexperiments. But no, no, no, but you need some structure.
Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise it's reallydifficult to know if you succeeded or not. Exactly. Nice. Cool. Yeah. We wentfor all of them. I don't know if there's anything you feel like we're missingor something you want to add? I think we got around it quite good. Yeah. Do youthink it will be interesting? It's always. Yeah. Yeah.
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